Jeremy: Let me
just get a little bit of background about you first, so can you tell me your
major?
Joanna: On the record it says undeclared.
Jer: Do you have any idea
of what you what to be?
Jo: Communications
Jer: I’d like to know
what types of history you’ve studied, either last quarter, this quarter, or in
high school?
Jo: None, I guess. I don’t know, this quarter I’m taking art history? And
then this seminar class.
Jer: In high school did
you take…you took World History and U.S. History
Jo: Yeah, I took all that U.S. stuff
Jer: The standard stuff?
Jo: Yeah, that’s all.
Jer: Okay, that’s fine.
Can you tell me about your high school? Where was it?
Jo: I went to high school in the bay area, at a high school called
Mills.
Jer: Mills? M-I-L-L-S?
Jo: Yes.
Jer: Okay, and what was
this high school like? Was this a private school?
Jo: No, it was a public high school…um…it was one of the best high
schools in our district.
Jer: Was it pretty big?
Jo: Fifteen hundred students.
Jer: Have you ever heard
an oral history, like a witness before..
Jo: on the Holocaust?..
Jer: just or in any
topic, like someone comes in…maybe you guys heard from someone that was in a
Japanese Internment camp or have you heard from anyone that has been through a
historical event?
Jo: Not in High school
Jer: Not in high school?
Jo: Not in my high school classroom, but in other settings.
Jer: Where?
Jo: I went to religious school from the time I was in second grade until
sophomore year.
Jer: What kind of
religious school?
Jo: At temple, I went to church twice a week. I did that for a really
long time.
Jer: In there you’ve
heard a lot of people talk?
Jo: I heard mostly Holocaust speakers.
Jer: Do you have any idea
how many?
Jo: A lot. I heard the one first quarter hear…Ruth…um
Jer: Ruth Kluger [Ruth Kluger spoke in Cambell Hall,
Fall 02]
Jo: and my friend’s grandparents, I’ve heard them. And we have had
speakers at our temple.
Jer: When you went to
hear Ruth Kluger talk, did you go just on your own?
Jo: No I went with some friends.
Jer: Did you guys talk
about it afterwards?
Jo: A little bit, not really. I wasn’t [… ], that was different. I’ve
never heard anyone talk like that. Mostly I heard different…more like the ones
that were in the concentration camps.
Jer: How did the other
ones you’ve heard compare to Ruth? [Ruth has a very interesting take on the Holocaust and life, perhaps this
was what Joanna was alluding to]
Jo: um…
Jer: because Ruth was in
the concentration camp too…
Jo: I think she had a really…I don’t know, I didn’t really understand
her that well, she had a thick accent.
Jer: Have the other
people you’ve heard not had as heavy accents?
Jo: They did, I was more used to them I think. I think I’ve met them
before, at least the ones that were in my synagogue, like in the classroom,
there was one in fifth grade, like our classrooms were like 14 people so we
also could have questions, I guess it was for a different audience [Compares to the large auditorium
that Ruth spoke in]. And we had just watched documentaries about the SS
troops and now we are hearing her talk what specifically happened to her, like
how she was taken in…by the Germans [Joanna will again talk of SS troops later on]
Jer: When you think back
to how you’ve learned about the Holocaust through school, do you remember the
first time you ever heard anything about it? You mentioned you went to
religious school when you were in second grade, was that your first
introduction to the Holocaust or have your parents talked about it?
Jo: My parents must have told me first.
Jer: Do you remember how
old you were and under what setting that was?
Jo: I can’t even remember, guess I’ve known about it since I’ve known
about any other topic. I can’t…
Jer: Okay, have you been
to any museums…that are Holocaust related, do a D.C. trip or anything.
Jo: umm hmm. I went to the memorial Washington D.C. one, and one in Israel.
Jer: You’ve been to the
one in Israel?
Jo: Yeah.
Jer: Did you take a
family trip to Israel?
Jo: Yes, I went once with my family and once on my conformation trip
with my temple [..]
Jer: How was the one in Israel
compared to the D.C. one?
Jo: The one Israel is much different. In Israel…I don’t know, the D.C.
one I was in sixth grade, I don’t remember it that well, but the one in Israel, I went when I was sixteen. There is a lot of
documentaries you can watch, a lot of newspapers[?] you can read. I was more
interested I guess, so I read more of the stuff that they had for you. It was
real.. it was more of a memorial I thought, more like a memory. This was more
emotional.
Jer: When you were at
these museums, did you hear any survivors talk there?
Jo: On film, I think there was one movie that you watch, in the one in Israel.
More of a documentary.
Jer: When you were in
high school, or even in religious school, did you read any Holocaust related
literature?
Jo: Yeah, Diary of Anne Frank. We read another one, Alicia:
My Story, read parts of that one, just cuz my mom. I think she came to
speak at our temple, and I didn’t go but my mom went and she bought the book,
and then she read it and told me to read it.
Jer: What were your reactions
to those books?
Jo: I didn’t read all of Alicia: My Story, but I read parts; it’s
a real thick book. I thought it was amazing. She set up her own camp, like
for other kids or something like that…so it’s just another amazing story.
Jer: Have you seen any
Holocaust related TV shows; documentaries or those TV dramas?
Jo: I’ve seen a documentary, probably seen so many, mostly…all I
remember from the documentaries that I’ve watched is the SS troops just
walking in the street. That’s really all I remember from documentaries. [This is the second mention of SS
troops- the image really sticks out for her]
Jer: That stands out?
What about cinema, have you seen Holocaust related films?
Jo: My favorite is Life is Beautiful, we haven’t seen that in
our class, but in our class we saw Schindler’s List, which is the first
time I’ve seen it, I hadn’t seen it before class. I couldn’t…I think I tried
to watch it before, when it first came out, must have been too young I couldn’t
watch it. We saw Europa Europa, I hadn’t seen that before.
Jer: You saw that in the
class? [The class is the GE
course]
Jo: We saw that in the class.
Jer: When did you first
see Life Is Beautiful?
Jo: The first time was in the theaters, and then we bought it.
Jer: Did your family like
that one?
Jo: Yeah. I didn’t even know…my parents just wanted to go to the movies
and I just went with them. I had no idea about it…first of all I didn’t it was
subtitled. Didn’t know it was about the Holocaust…[poor audio for a moment]
Jer: Can you tell me
about, you can pick any speaker that you want that you’ve heard about the
Holocaust, can you just run me through that, give me some details- what sticks
out the most?
Jo: They all blur together.
Jer: Do their stories
overlap then, or is it just when you think back it’s all…
Jo: I can remember bits and pieces of different stories I’ve heard and
stories I’ve heard about. My childhood best friend, her grandparents were both
in the Holocaust, and they were together before the war, and then got separated
in the camps, and then they found each other…and then they both went to the United
States. So I’ve seen their tattoos and I’ve heard about what happened to
them in the camps, and they seem very lucky. [Tattoos indicate that they were in Auschwitz]
Jer: Are they pretty
open, when they talk about it?
Jo: um…
Jer: Did they tell you
kids about it, or did you guys ask them?
Jo: I think just when I went to their house and their grandparents
happened to be over, we would see it [the Tattoos], and then we would ask them about it and they would
tell us a little bit, but I never really talked to them for hours about it. I
never heard them speak publicly.
Jer: Are there any
stories that really stick out about the Holocaust, from any of these speakers
that are real, maybe of something really horrible or else something really
hopeful and profound, from all the speakers that you’ve heard?
Jo: Not really, I remember listening when I was in fifth grade in a
class, I think we did a lot of Holocaust stuff that year, we watched a film and
then a speaker came in, I just remember her talking a lot her sister, and how
her and her sister were keeping each other alive, just helping each other out.
Jer: Can you tell me
about this fifth grade class? Was this in religious school?
Jo: mmn hmm.
Jer: And you think it was
just about the Holocaust?
Jo: Every year we go on to a class with a different teacher in the same
religious school, in our temple. And I think fifth year we had a teacher that
everyone wants to have, Mr. Nigel, that’s his name, and he just does lots of
stuff on the Holocaust definitely. And then we went on, sophomore year we
talked about it again because we were all being confirmed and you have to write
a speech, so I think they really wanted to make sure that it was some stuff
from the Holocaust.
Jer: In some of these
Holocaust classes did you guys do some background before you heard speakers
come in…so you guys were more informed?
Jo: I think he told us…he must have told us a little background, but
we…I didn’t know all the background, I’m learning it now, that’s really what
I’m learning all the details; when Hitler came to power, and all the things
that went on. I didn’t really…I know I’ve heard it but I don’t know it.
Jer: And in high school
you guys never covered the Holocaust at all?
Jo: Not Likely.
Jer: Can you tell me some
of your overall impressions of the Holocaust after you’ve heard these speakers,
does this really help you shed light on the Holocaust…through the speakers…like
as you’re studying it now in Dr. Marcuse’s class, can you kind of think back
and be like ‘Oh okay, when I think Auschwitz that’s Ruth Kluger, that’s my
friends grandparents with their tattoos…” Does that kind of help set a context.
Jo: Really I wish I paid attention, or that I remember it, and then I
know I’m going to keep going to the speakers cuz they’re not going to be around
forever, for that much longer. And also I ask my parents more questions. Our
family came over earlier, but I know we had some kind of relative, I was
talking in class about that, they were on a train to one of the camps and they
just decided to poison themselves because they didn’t want to go through it,
and I think that is the closest relative that I know about, I sure my
grandparents could tell me other stories.
Jer: Are you interested
in asking your grandparents those stories?
Jo: Probably should. I don’t see them…I see them about twice a year,
when I see them we don’t want to talk about that.
Jer: Yeah, it’s not an
easy topic. Can you tell me how hearing oral testimonies, hearing witnesses
give their stories, compares to when you are reading? Like let’s say reading Anne
Frank’s Diary versus a speaker you’ve heard? How do you feel about those?…[The pause here shows no response and
a blank stare, perhaps she was overwhelmed by the question]…What do you
think is more enlightening and helpful for you, just in you academic
advancement, books or speakers?
Jo: I think with books you can take the
time and try to figure out what they are trying to tell you, and figure out
what they are trying to get across, but when you hear a speaker it’s right in
your face. Their telling you something that happened to them, and you can see
who they are, you’re not just reading their name and reading the details.
Jer: Does a speaker, when
they talk, seem more emotional to you than stories that are in written print?
Jo: Yep.
Jer: Is that necessarily
helpful for academia?
Jo: I think films are really powerful. I think films are a really good
way to get across the emotions of the Holocaust…along with speakers.
Jer: You think films like
documentary films or you think films like Life is Beautiful?
Jo: Both. They are both definitely different but they both hit you,
actually I really felt that Life is Beautiful was one of the saddest
movies I have every seen and I didn’t find Schindler’s List as sad as Life
is Beautiful and we talked about that in class, and I couldn’t understand
why everyone keeps talking about how Schindler’s List was so sad, it’s
so sad, but I thought Life is Beautiful was more sad, even though it’s
fiction.
Jer: What do you think
about the fact that Life is Beautiful is fiction? About having a story
that is set in the Holocaust? Do you think that is okay? Schindler’s List
is obviously about the Holocaust, Life is Beautiful pertains to the
Holocaust, but there is also another story going on. How do you feel about
that? You think that’s okay?
Jo: Yeah, I think that’s fine. I think it brings more drama to it. It
depends on what kind of perspective you want, while you’re watching the movie.
Like, what are you trying to get out of it? Are you trying to learn, trying to
learn what really happened, are you trying to learn facts like all about Schindler’s
List and Schindler?…or…like I’m sure in some way, that kind of story happened,
a husband and wife were separated and they were trying to meet up with each
other. [That kind of story
seems to have happened to her friends grandparents]
Jer: So you think it’s okay
to use the Holocaust as a backdrop for fictional stories and romance.
Jo: I don’t really see it as… I see it as they are using something that
might have happened, they’re making up a story that might have happened or
something similar. Like obviously…my friend’s grandparents, they lost each
other and they found each other, it might have happened, and they are just
using it to hold people together, when they’re watching it.
Jer: Nina is going to
talk to you guys on Tuesday, hopefully..
Jo: oh is she?
Jer: Hopefully, but I’m
pretty sure she is, so do you have any sort of expectations on that? Has Dr.
Marcuse given you guys any background on her?
Jo: I think he told us a little about her, I don’t really know too much
about her story. I don’t know. I’m going to hear her speak I guess. [Nina would end up coming a week later,
giving the students time to read her letter]
Jer: Do you have any
questions that you are really curious to ask her?
Jo: I’m going to try and pay attention this time and remember her
story. Because I think when you are younger it is hard to remember the
specific story of a person; remember their name and which camp they were in,
and what country, but I think when you’re older it is important to try and
remember those things.
Jer: How do you feel
about the fact that all the speakers that our generation can hear were all
children in the Holocaust, and now they are old people now?
Jo: You wonder how accurate their memory is, and what went on. And you
wonder what it was like to be an adult, like you are always wondering what it
was like to child, what was it like to be an adult, and to have your children
go through this, and to watch them be taken away.
Jer: Okay. Is there
anything else you would like to add?
Jo: [laughing] I need a topic for my Holocaust paper.
Jer: You’re going to
write a Holocaust paper?
Jo: Yeah.
Jer: For Dr. Marcuse’s
class?
Jo: mmn hmm
Jer: What are the
parameters for it?
Jo: Basically just pick a topic that interests you and make sure it’s
focused
Jer: How long are these
papers suppose to be?
Jo: Five to six pages
Jer: Have you given any
thoughts to it?
Jo: I have a couple of possible topics, and I’m going to go to the
library right now and attempt to do research.
Jer: Fantastic.
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